- Duration: 41 min
- Platform: meet
- Source: Read.ai 01JP3734NW153MESJHVX7RWFEM (https://app.read.ai/analytics/meetings/01JP3734NW153MESJHVX7RWFEM)
Transcript
[Ken Yarmosh]: stay down in Texas, like since the event or came back to Texas again? [Michael Houck]: Yeah, no, the, um, I’m just, uh, I’m seeing some family here also thinking about if I want to move here. [Ken Yarmosh]: That is the spot for people like you right now. Like if you want to do startup, I mean, Austin is like the start, the new startup capital of the world. [Michael Houck]: Right. I actually didn’t like Austin that much, honestly. [Ken Yarmosh]: Um, I think compared to what it was 10 years ago, it’s like just, like too many people. [Michael Houck]: Yeah, I think you know, I’ve lived in New York, LA NSF for the past 10 years. And all the people I know from there who are moving to Texas are moving to Austin. But I want to do something very different. And so I’m like, if I’m moving to the same place, all the same people are moving, I’m going to get the same result. [Ken Yarmosh]: So yeah, I am always the guy that’s like, I was remote before that was a cool thing to do. Like, you know, like the small fun man, like everyone told me, I couldn’t build a remote agency in 2005. And I was like, okay, let me just go do that real quick. Um, and then the people that told me that later were like, Hey, can you help me like build remotely, like build the agency remotely and figure out all that stuff. So. I think I’m, I’m similar to you. I don’t have the cool hair. Like I used to have the same hair color as you, by the way, like all the way back. Um, jokes, but, um, yeah. So what, what do you think? Like just more like I’m, I personally, like the suburbs a lot more now. Like I’m more of a suburbs guy. [Michael Houck]: Yeah, I think for me, you know, I got divorced last year. And so I want to meet wife number two. And so being in the city is going to be better for that. [Ken Yarmosh]: And you’ll come out to be like, I see I’m there plus four kids now. So I’m like out of there. But I hear you on that, man. Yeah, I totally hear you on that. I did like Dallas a lot when my family was there for a little bit. But, you know, it’s not going to give you the, like part of what I like about what we did is that that’s the kind of thing that you get in San Francisco and New York. Like you just go run into someone at a coffee shop. That’s like doing something cool. Right. Out in the suburbs of Virginia, like outside of DC, like that’s, this is not ever going to happen. [UNKNOWN_SPEAKER]: Yeah. [Michael Houck]: I think it’s, you know, it’s whatever your priorities are for me. You know, I already have a network that I feel good about and make things happen with. So it’s I just don’t really care about that anymore. [Ken Yarmosh]: It’s less about networking. I mean, it’s more networking in the sense of like you and I, like, you know, we are having some one fun war story chats versus like, you need them. There’s just not like, that’s why I’ve created my own little peer group of, you know, that’s not like, oh yeah, I just comment on your stuff on LinkedIn where I actually meet up with people and kind of have that hive mind. Yeah, I totally hear you. But I love your, yeah, man, I’m happy just to have like a friendly chat. I was, like I said, I was fan boy that felt stupid that I legit didn’t recognize you. [Michael Houck]: It was better, better, more authentic early. [Ken Yarmosh]: Cause you have your like pre, you know, pre judgments of like how someone will be. And I did link up your, uh, your Hill, uh, Silicon Valley history video more recently in my own newsletter. So, um, yeah, it was just, you know, it’s just like one of the, one of a bunch of links, but it was nicely done. So it’s cool. Are you kind of exploring that storytelling mode a little bit more? [Michael Houck]: I mean, we plan on doing a lot of YouTube stuff this year in general, making it one of our core pillar type platforms. Formats, we’re still experimenting with. We’ve only done two videos. So we’re doing a third one right now on startup culture in the US versus Europe, which will be a little bit easy one. But yeah. We’re still experimenting. I’m trying to work with Ryan from the Summit. I’ve known him for a while, and he wanted to work together like a year ago. [Ken Yarmosh]: I just wasn’t doing YouTube at the time. I think you hit up a lot of people. My audience is much smaller on Twitter. I’m still waiting for you to accept my invite on LinkedIn one day. I just did. I just did. That’s actually why you were late. It’s all good, man. I have to just poke you a little bit. I like to have fun. I like to have fun if you can’t tell. No, but he, I think was maybe doing like a cold Twitter DM campaign. You know, I have, but I think he saw me on LinkedIn and then he hit me up probably at the same time when he was launching this. And I’m like, why is this guy like reaching out to people like me and wanting to go do stuff like this? Maybe he saw me on LinkedIn and thought I’d be less busy over there. But now seeing him, especially like I knew he was good, but then seeing him at the The summit I’m like, okay, I don’t know why this guy had, you know, showed up in my DMS. Um, he’s a super legit guy. [Michael Houck]: I mean, I’ve known him for, for a few years and he’s, you know, he’s worked with some people who I have a lot of respect for. So he’s, he knows his stuff. [Ken Yarmosh]: He’s a real deal. It is. Yeah. And I’ve, I’ve always gotten back and forth because I’m, I think I’m probably like you, I’m a little bit older than you are, but, uh, don’t, you know, don’t hate on me because of that. Uh, I’m just joking with you. Um, but I remember, like uploading the first videos to YouTube ever, you know, and like literally it was on Twitter when it was all the tweets in the home page and like grew on those and then kind of like dabbled more than like went hard. And the people that obviously went harder, it’s worked out. Then I didn’t make that mistake with LinkedIn. And that’s, you know, I got up to 30 plus thousand. Um, now LinkedIn is not being nice to people like us and, uh, and withholding organic reach, but that’s, that’s, that’s why I have a similar philosophy to you. Like, newsletter, you know, like to me, it’s social distribution, get them onto the newsletter. And then like, that’s a lot of people are coming into my orbit because of the newsletter. [Michael Houck]: Yeah. I’m, I’m honestly a little worried about newsletters. Um, cause I think that like, well, we’re going to see over the course of this year and into next year is a shift from like a very high level, you know, like Ben Thompson’s for techery aggregation theory, like the aggregators, right. I think we’ve moved away from aggregators. I don’t think we’re going to see aggregators emerge anymore. I think because of what AI can do, the new type of high leverage sort of power broker type products is something I’m calling an arbiter. I read your breakdown on that this past week. [Ken Yarmosh]: Yeah, it was good. Oh, cool. Yeah. [Michael Houck]: So I actually think that what that means is that like for newsletters trying to get in front of people in their inboxes, there are going to be challenges to like showing up. And you can make the argument that, oh, well, you’ll just show an AI summary versus a subject line. And that’s effectively the same thing. Maybe that’s true. But for people who run businesses off of their newsletters, if those things are taking the sponsors and ads away entirely from the issue, clicks are going to drop like crazy. And it’s going to be a much different looking business. People who have their own products to sell are going to be the ones who survive. [Ken Yarmosh]: And this is where I feel there’s a mismatch between Matt’s stuff. He really wants to work with the five companies that can afford to spend the $100,000 plus media spends. And he attracts them within his little orbit. He's cool because he even invited competitors to speak that are probably taking clients that. But he's creating a cool collision. I talk about that as collisions. But he's not really directly helping, aside from information and knowledge, his stuff is not really like, I can show you how to add people to your newsletter, that are especially not monetizing the way that I monetize it. I don't monetize with ads or sponsorships. I monetize it because people read my stuff and they want to get playbooks and frameworks, and then they reach out to me or book a time to chat or just reply to a CTA. And my lifetime value is not $12, like 1440, it’s 30 or $50,000 or $100,000. I’ve definitely seen the same change that you’re mentioning, like just even in terms of people. I used to be able to do a very simple campaign and get like 100 people saying whatever the keyword was, and that doesn’t really work like two years, three years later. So I definitely see a shift on that. Do people mostly book out of your newsletter or is it like, you know, just finding you somewhere and just going directly to talk about megaphone or whatever your agency side stuff. Yeah. You’re saying book is in book, uh, like because we’re working with you, like, Hey, I saw your new, is it like they started on a distribution channel, got onto the newsletter, read that for a while and then say, Oh, by the way, I want to learn more about megaphone. Yeah. [Michael Houck]: I mean, we have a lot of, a lot of like hooks into the funnel. The newsletter is obviously one that gives us, an easy advantage just like spin something up right for example. I’m thinking about spinning up a design agency right now that’s you know we just do that with the newsletter and get you know some clients and on day one. But for us I think that the most sustainable channels have been. Aside from your dumping more subs into the newsletter and hoping that some small percentage convert. You know we have some good partnerships with growth agencies for newsletters and for social media. And we send folks to them, they send folks to us, you know, nothing crazy. [Ken Yarmosh]: Yeah, that one buddy of yours, was his name Matt or who was your buddy? Yeah. I know you, it sounded like more you sending people to him than vice versa, but it seemed like you’re some good network stuff there. No, he’s, he’s sent us a ton actually. [Michael Houck]: He’s like a low, low key guy, right? [Ken Yarmosh]: Like he’s an under the radar kind of genius. It seems like Savant. [UNKNOWN_SPEAKER]: Yeah. [Michael Houck]: I mean, he’s a teal fellow. But he has no social media presence at all, really. [Ken Yarmosh]: I could tell he was next level smart. And then when he said Brown, not that it really, not that it matters, but only really smart people go to places like that. [Michael Houck]: Well, not about only, but your hit rate’s pretty high. Yeah, your hit rate’s pretty high. [Ken Yarmosh]: I’ve had plenty of people, like we used to, when we were building a startup, we actually had Peter Thiel as one of our investors and Fred Wilson and his team. He wasn’t the senior investor, like the senior partner that was the investor, but Our CEO at that point, this is where I learned how to build things the right way. Just hired for a lot of like, this guy went to Columbia and this guy was at school. And then they’d come in and I’m like, buddy, we’re not doing the pigeon algorithms, beautiful mind stuff on the window. You got to give me an algorithm that we can put into the product here and actually monetize this thing. It was all the way back when PPC was new. [Michael Houck]: So I hear you on that. It’s got to be got to be practical stuff at the end of the day. [Ken Yarmosh]: So I saw that in your newsletter, man, like you’re sort of asking anything else that we can help with. But I still think you have like a lot more that you can squeeze out of your, your content agency, because I think even like the everyone loves the South Hill Bloom, like I have 10 agencies. But we also all don’t have like, you know, 10 million people across our networks. So are you thinking of like running more portfolio portfolio style? [Michael Houck]: Yeah, I mean, we definitely see we have a lot more room to grow both in terms of, like, just servicing more clients with our current, like, offers for the ghost writing, but also sort of going up market, taking on bigger, bigger ticket clients, and bigger brand clients, and sort of building holistic systems for them, whether it’s training, like for their execs, whether it’s doing the whole executive There’s a lot more we can do there, and we plan to throughout the course of this year, but it just seems like such low-hanging fruit to start a few of these things with the same playbook that we’ve run so far for the content agency. I mean, look, I came from a business that we were running in-person co-living experiments and a global digital membership program for founders, and we had a venture fund and would invest in those companies. So that was like a super complicated business to run yeah running a media business and um at least so far the agency on top of that have been like significantly lower bandwidth for me than than that was so um it just seems like a missed opportunity to not do the same thing which is you know for the content agency hired uh blake emal good content yeah like for more on like kind of the copy guru for you yeah yeah so like he’s in the weeds with the writers I just do sales and growth. And that’s, that’s basically in some, some account management stuff sometimes when people are upset. Um, yeah, the nasty grams, right. [Ken Yarmosh]: Yeah. But I mean, we won’t be doing that forever either. [Michael Houck]: You know, we’ll have, we’ll have people to help out with some of that stuff, but yeah, it just seems like a no brainer to find a great designer or find a great, uh, like fractional CFO and just spin up these services for founders because that’s really what they want. They don’t want a media subscription from us. They don’t even want a membership. Ship from us. What they want is to help their, their startup. [UNKNOWN_SPEAKER]: Yeah. [Ken Yarmosh]: I mean, pretty much all those guys want, I don’t like to, I recommend and you get the stuff. Like I never tell a prospect like, Hey, do you want me to, do you want it? Uh, do it with you? Like, no, they all want it done for you without saying it that way. Um, I also think though, when, and I’m a guy who pays attention to details, but when you heard Nathan Barry gave the rundown on South Hill stuff, And again, like the guy can just like pass the breeze of Sawhill passes by and like people are interested today. Right. Like he’s a top brand, but they’re all doing like less than a million or a million based on the numbers that they provided. Um, I’m doing a million myself and it’s like saying, and I’m honestly not doing anything that’s done for you. But when I talk with a prospect, essentially I am getting it done for them. Like I’m saying, like I said, you know, let’s say, um, I was talking to a couple of different guys from there, a couple of agency owners from the conference that met me and they’re like, you actually know what you’re talking about, dude. I’m like, yeah, I hope so after 20 years, but they go and talk to me and I’m like, Hey, I could be your fractional COO and you could charge me 25. I could charge you 25, 30 K a month, or I could work with you like this and just shortcut you straight to the answer. And they’re like, yes, let’s do that second one. Now, not a direct one-to-one when I was an app company, which is more like you got to produce the output. I still positioned it the same way. Like part of why they went with us as of the app company was that I also did top notch design. And I also helped them with the app store optimization, which no one knew how to do back then. Now you can throw it into AI and it’ll be done tomorrow morning. Right. So this thing, like finding that little blue ocean there that like gets you into the higher value unlock, which is why my starting prices were 200 K and up when people in India were charging $5,000 to do that. [Michael Houck]: Yeah, I mean, I think that's, that's sort of the big question on my mind for this year is, you know, I know how to get more of these content clients, newsletter clients, social media clients at the, you know, let's call it three to seven K monthly price point, right? I can do that. I now know how to do that. We have funnels set up to do it. What I don't know is how do I go get the 20 K 30 K a month plus clients who maybe require more personnel on our side to service, but like, how do we, I mean, I guess just take case studies from the smaller folks and sell to them, but yeah, curious your thoughts on that. [Ken Yarmosh]: Yeah, I think a lot of times, man, like I'll put it this way and this is us talking war stories, obviously, but when I sold a 20K gig initially, so let's say like your five to 7K thing, that's like a three to four month project, roughly speaking, what I did early on. And then I sold my first six figure thing. The difference of actually what we did, I'm not saying like process wasn't, you know, incrementally better was really how we positioned ourselves and how we sold the deal. That's about it. Okay. And it was also like not to undersell it too much. It was very much about like, are we targeting the right prospect, which is actually what you and I talked about a little bit, like briefly when I was still at a num num, not, you know, recognizing you, right. I'll just self deprecation is good. It's healthy. But I said, oh yeah, man, you're kind of bouncing around. You have one client that does this, or one client's in another industry. I think if you just go deeper in, even saying, oh, it's lots of startups, but it's like series A startups. It could be this. It doesn't have to be series A startups that are in fintech, that are also connected to this one person. And you can literally sell just directly down deep into that. And a lot of it is just elevating the sales process at that point saying, yeah, I worked with a bunch of these other people. Just a quick little side note for my current business, not my last one, but once I, in my last business, when I got the NFL players association and PBS, then I could just like replicate that a whole bunch of times in the current business. And I only say this because I know you're on LinkedIn, but when I got Matt Barker, I then got Laura Costa. When I got Laura Costa, I also then got, uh, Luke Shalom when I got I also got Ryan Musselman. When I got Ryan Musselman, I also got now Sheen. When I got now Sheen, I also got Nat Berman. And some of those people are in theory, at least direct competitors, but my ability to kind of actually help them stay in their lanes and build a blue ocean for them. I'm like, and they're friends. They're kind of frenemies in some ways. Some of those people without getting into the insider baseball, it's like, okay, well, you're really good at personal branding and you're actually better at like making money money for agencies. So let's stop just being the general ghostwriter and be someone that's deeper in that thing. And then that's also what got them to where they are today, because they were having six-figure audiences in certain cases, but not making any money out of that. So the point being, tying it back to you, making that decision on really who do you want to go deep on, and then just building what I call a six-figure closing asset and a pitch to win separates you from Yeah, we could do some ghost writing for five to seven K, which honestly, as an agency is way low. Cause I have individuals that are charging 10 K a month for that. [Michael Houck]: Yeah, I know. Um, we we've been talking about raising pricing internally, but, um, I don't know. Our close rate is so good that I like, I like the volume right now, but we, we, we might raise it still above 20% is bad means you're way under market. [Ken Yarmosh]: So if you're like, yeah, I can, I'm at 80% closer. Rates, then you're way under market. And you have a personal brand yourself. When I ran my agency, I was big on Twitter. At that point, having 5,000 followers on Twitter was a big deal. And I also wrote a book for O'Reilly. So I also had a personal brand. So people also were like, I want to work with KY versus some dude in India that's going to charge me 2,000 bucks. And I think you have a personal brand that people are like, can you just help me do that? Can you help me get 40 3,000 followers on LinkedIn or can you help me do the stuff that you're doing on YouTube? But like essentially when I was gonna reach out to you and it was like not because I'm not really your client But more like hey, I want to ask you a question I'm like, I just want to replicate some of your business into my business like what you had talked about with kind of your conversion ads Which maybe that was back when X was a thing is X doesn't really have those anymore But that was interesting to me. I'm like, oh, I wonder how he does that so I think like kind of helping those founders almost like say, just show us how to build founder led brands, just like you're doing yourself, like replicate that for us. [Michael Houck]: Yeah, I think what we've seen though, is that the the newsletter clients are more retentive, and easier to work with. So if we do raise prices, it'll probably be for the social media side, just so that we sort of, you know, maybe price ourselves out of that as much as we can make I would think about it as... [Ken Yarmosh]: So when I think about building an offer portfolio for any agency, I would just put that into your most premium offer, social media. But I would think about it as channel-specific, like newsletter, right? Newsletter plus something else, newsletter plus... I saw you promoted Podpitch, and I'm sure you could just bundle that in as an offer and just like, we also get you on podcasts. So it's like newsletter, newsletter, plus podcast newsletter, plus podcast, plus social. And then like this way you just price that at like 20 grand a month and just have them say no all day to that. And now you're making 10 to 15 K for those founder brands. But as an agency man, like even if you have people that are really good and you have someone like Blake, I don't think you can charge like the prices that you are and like get it to a sustainable margin, right? Like I just, you know, just for, just for the sake of, um, if you're like, Oh yeah, I'm making 20 or 30%. Like that's not good enough. [Michael Houck]: I don't think we make 45 to 50. [UNKNOWN_SPEAKER]: Okay. [Ken Yarmosh]: Yeah. That's, that's obviously a lot better. Um, but I would just say to get to, you know, a scale for where you should be in this business. I mean, I think you should easily be doing 2 million, um, in that business alone. So my, my comments, you would say like, it's the sales process is a big thing in a positioning, being confident when the prospect feels the confidence, like they pay for that confidence. And then probably just going like, being more specific and a little bit more upmarket on who you deal with. And then just replicate that, like you said, into the next, you know, any number of agencies. [Michael Houck]: Yeah, I guess my question about going upmarket is just like, you're talking about positioning it differently. Like, what does that look like, Because that's the unknown to me. You know, this is the first agency that I've built since I was a year out of college and I had a shop, right? [Ken Yarmosh]: Yeah. It's a good question. Part of what I would do with you would be looking across all of your clients and doing some pattern matching because the upmarket is probably not about actually changing as much as replicating two to three or four clients that we identify and then going after those clients more purposely. So I think that's really what it would look like, And you could do that exercise yourself. It's like, we're going to go stack rank every client we've worked with, right? We're going to put what, how did they come into the queue? What channel it was from, what their title was, what their main challenge was, what the thing was that we did for them on the other side, what did we charge? And then start doing some pattern matching on that. And including like, what series were they in? Did we actually work with the founder? Did we work with the head of content? Like who are all those things? And then start to do some pattern matching. I would say like the top three to five would be the ones that I'd look to go replicate. Right. So finding up market is probably not up market. Like we're going to go sell the enterprise, right. And get lost with some person that doesn't care about our value. And we're not going to deal with the decision maker as much as replicating the ones where they felt the longest about the value. And it was easy to work with them. I like to say, like, think about it as the qualitative, as much as the quantitative. So how do you enjoy working with them versus like, just as an example, you're like, Oh yeah, I had to go deal with a couple of things for work. If you have the clients that are pain in the butts, like we just start getting those kinds of clients out of the portfolio. Right. And we just start replicating the ones that are cool. My clients, like I legitimately love to hang out with them. Like I look forward to talking with them. And I think that's really, that's like the switch of going from like taking on anyone to taking on awesome that value the work, that are easy to sell to and stay with you for three to five years. [Michael Houck]: Yeah, we've fired two clients so far because they were just not great to work with, but maybe we should have fired one or two more. Maybe I'll go fire somebody today. [Ken Yarmosh]: I think part of it too, Matt, is a lot of people like you get successful and it's like a positive and a negative. You can wake up and close deals, but they're not all the deals that should be closed. Right. [UNKNOWN_SPEAKER]: Right. [Ken Yarmosh]: And so just building in what I call the progressive qualification, you actually have to work against, you have to create a little bit of friction in the buying process that you don't have right now. Because we want people to opt in to say, I can't wait to talk with Michael. And they provided you everything that they need to close in the way that makes sense relative to the being a premium option in the marketplace. [Michael Houck]: Makes sense. Um, makes sense. [Ken Yarmosh]: So just like curious, man, are you still doing like paid stuff or have you turned all that off? Like I saw at some point you were doing those conversion ads and you're like not on X anymore. It looks like, or maybe you're a, for some reason I can't find you on there anymore. Um, so I don't know. Are you like all in on, on other channels now? And are you doing any paid stuff? [Michael Houck]: Uh, we paused paid for a while. We're actually going to restart it, um, probably in like two, three weeks. Um, but we've been, we've been working with Matt on the email growth side and that's been going really well. Um, but no, more meta side then more like meta ecosystem. [Ken Yarmosh]: Yeah, definitely. [Michael Houck]: I mean, I, you know, my account on Twitter is suspended. We sent too many DMS. They didn't like that. Um, working on it. [Ken Yarmosh]: Yeah, I figured they want to bring up a sore topic, but figured No, no, not a sore topic. [Michael Houck]: It's been a while, so it's all good. Um, but yeah, so we'll, we'll be running paid again, but it'll be, it'll be through meta. [Ken Yarmosh]: Yeah. I just find like, I don't know, you probably could educate me on it more. I just don't love the whole meta ecosystem. Um, I'm, I'm very, I'm not, I'm invested in LinkedIn, but I'm careful about LinkedIn, but I kinda like, I pay more for stuff on LinkedIn, even if it's 20 or 30, because 20 or $30 just to acquire someone because I make that money back very, very fast. [Michael Houck]: I think for, for, for where you’re at, it probably makes sense to do that. Honestly, you, you, you’d rather pay for quality than pay for volume. Essentially. [Ken Yarmosh]: That’s what I was like, you know, I love going to the conference, the summit and getting ideas. Like Matt is one of the five people that I trust with this stuff. Right. In terms of like, he knows what he’s talking about, but it’s less about, I’m going to go build that I know we’re over time or we’re out of time, but it’s less about replicating that media business model and more like, what can I learn from those kinds of businesses that I can apply to the kind of business that I run? [Michael Houck]: Totally. Yeah. I mean, that’s what you should do. That’s why you should go to places like that, where there’s really smart people who know their niche, like Matt does. And you’re like, well, this guy knows stuff. It’s a different business, but there’s probably one or two things that I can learn and improve what I’m doing or make updates or at least test things. Out. [Ken Yarmosh]: Yeah, for sure, man. But dude, anytime you have a question, feel free to hit me up. I’m a fan. Legitimately, I just read your… I think you had one today or yesterday. It was the vibe coding and all that. Yeah, so it’s funny. I think I saw a couple people talking about that. It’s a newsmaker this week for sure. But no, I always love your angles. So keep doing what you’re doing, man. I would just give you an encouragement. Hopefully, we’ll stay in touch because I’m a fan. But I would just say before you go do again, like make this one just pop more and then go replicate it. [UNKNOWN_SPEAKER]: You know what I mean? [Ken Yarmosh]: Like make this one, make this current agency like hum a little bit more. And then when you got that humming, like go do it again and again. Cause then you’ll be, instead of a $1 million thing, you'll be two or three or four or $5 million thing. And you’ll run four of those and then you’ll be doing a $20 million thing. [Michael Houck]: Yeah, that’s, that’s the plan. We’re not launching anything new today, but just gathering data on what the right next thing to do is, I I think we can hit 2 million by sometime over the summer. And then at that point, it’ll be a little easier to just keep that rolling. [Ken Yarmosh]: Cool, man. Well, I hope the transition works well. Don’t be a stranger. And I appreciate the acceptance into the ecosystem. And yeah, if I could be a resource, man, feel free to hit me up. And if anyone could benefit from this kind of perspective, I don’t try to sell my new friends. But if there’s anyone in your audience that can do that. [Michael Houck]: Yeah, well, I’m sure there’ll be people. And also I appreciate just like giving some, giving some tips too, but there’ll be some people I can, I can hopefully send your way and we should just stay in touch. [Ken Yarmosh]: So it’d be, it’d be good. I’m going to bother you on your email a couple of times. So this way I can say, please do. [Michael Houck]: I got to run though. [Ken Yarmosh]: This is a sales. See.