- Duration: 34 min
- Platform: meet
- Source: Read.ai 01JJ53NJKER2WY4HBF83MWGBMK (https://app.read.ai/analytics/meetings/01JJ53NJKER2WY4HBF83MWGBMK)
Transcript
[Michael Bernzweig]: Hey, Michael. [UNKNOWN_SPEAKER]: How you doing, man? Hey, doing fine. How you doing, Michael? Good. [Michael Houck]: Good to meet. [Michael Bernzweig]: Where are you based at? [Michael Houck]: Just outside of Boston. Oh, nice. I got out of the cold. I was in New York, but I’m down now in Argentina for the winter. Oh, I love it. I love it. [Michael Bernzweig]: Well, that’s kind of crazy. It’s good stuff, though. Yeah. I actually have a buddy who lived in Argentina for years and moved to the US. And I started my day in India, moved to England. And here I am, you’re, believe it or not, here I am midway through the day. And I think you’re one of the only people in the US I’ve talked to. [Michael Houck]: Yeah, the world has changed so much. I feel like when I was just getting started, I was always talking to people in the same place, first of all. [Michael Bernzweig]: And then now it’s like, if I talk to someone in the same time zone, it feels close. Right? Yeah, it’s like so different. So it sounds like you’ve figured. So I started this business back in 1998. I saw. Yeah, I saw. In the early days of the internet. In fact, I launched in September of 98, which was month, Google launched. [Michael Houck]: Oh, wow. [Michael Bernzweig]: When, um, I actually, when I graduated college in 92 and it was like horrible, horrible economy and spent the first couple of years just trying to figure out what to do. And every, every radio station you turned on, they’re like the internet’s coming, the internet’s coming. It’s going to be big. And I’m like, yeah, whatever we’ll say. And then they were having a trade conference in Boston at the World Trade Center. And this was right around 1995, which really was the beginning of the internet. And I went. I’m like, I haven’t got much going on. I’ll see what’s going on there. And I met these four guys. And everybody had their booth set up. And these four guys had this crazy booth. Filled with what looked like yellow phone books. And I’m like, what are they doing? It was like a spectacle. I think that’s what they were aiming for. And one of the guys said to me, he’s like, tell me what you do. I did. He’s like, he hands me an AOL desk. He’s like, go online, register that domain name. He’s like, and you’ll thank me later, he said. But what we do, he said, we spent all of last year getting every single website we could find on the internet, and we put it into these yellow phone books that you see here. And we’re going to be selling advertising. He’s like, unfortunately, I’m a little busy right now. He’s like, but when I get back to the office, I’ll send you some information on what we do. [Michael Houck]: That was Jerry Yang over at Yahoo. Oh, my god. [Michael Bernzweig]: No, Andrew Yang. Andrew Yang. It was the guy who founded Yahoo. [Michael Houck]: The the phone book thing is funny. And also the idea of why they own books is funny, too. That’s a right. [Michael Bernzweig]: I guess it was a logical step. I mean, you know, they saw phone books with advertising in it, right? So they thought they’d do advertising for the Internet in a phone book, put it in a familiar medium for people and they get it faster. Right. That’s absolutely absolutely. So so called email. So you’ve you’ve, you know, I’ve I’ve been messing around with cold email for a few months, to be honest with you. I’ve got everything set up. I’ve got the structure. I’ve got it, got it working. I’ve got all the tech in place and you know, haven’t really been using it for that strategy for growing the newsletter, but, um, I’ve been falling. The guy from, I’ll tell you who he is. The guy who, let’s see. [Michael Houck]: You’ll know his name when I tell you. [Michael Bernzweig]: So he’s, he actually isn’t even taking on any clients. He’s like, he does, you know, he does, he was originally, you know, like with the hustle and, morning brew and all those kind of things. Who’s this guy? [Michael Houck]: If it’s the hustle, you’re talking about Sam Parr? No, not Sam. [Michael Bernzweig]: So this guy, Matt McGarry. Do you know Matt? He’s a good friend of mine. He actually used to do our paid ads for my newsletter. Yeah, so he’s got his shit together. He definitely, yeah, he’s a good guy. So I’ve been going through his playbook of everything. Because I think he’s probably like so inundated with people coming at him saying like, I’d like you to help me. But he’s like, I’ll just throw him a bone, get him something, get him going. So I’ve been like, you know, methodically like going through it. And I’m amazed at like, you know, just in the few weeks I’ve been working at like the difference. [Michael Houck]: Oh, yeah. No one understands sort of newsletter growth, I would say in general better than he does, especially paid growth. But newsletter growth in general, he’s he’s the guy. He helped us set up some funnels on our newsletter. He helped us set up our paid strategy through the newsletter. And he helped us get our first, I’d say, 30,000 or 40,000 subscribers. He’s really good. [Michael Bernzweig]: And he also is a good guy to work with, too. Yeah, he seems like a really down-to-earth guy. So I’ll share with you. So absolutely, this business, zero paid advertising, 100% organic. And I mean, I’m fortunate. I, I started early, so, you know, I had a lot of momentum, um, early on, but, um, I’ve also, I owned another company until sold it a couple of years ago. And, um, that business was probably 50, 50 paid versus organic. Uh, but you know, you have to understand when I started paid advertising was a penny or a nickel a click. It’s like a whole other world, you know? And it’s just crazy. So I’ve literally mastered every possible scenario to do organic growth. So when you mentioned that, I was like, yeah, that’s kind of interesting. [UNKNOWN_SPEAKER]: Yeah. [Michael Houck]: I guess if it would help, I can tell you how we have been using email for my newsletter and also for other folks, too. Um, you know, I think there’s this perception, especially in outside of America, but also in America too, you know, like cold email is illegal. Like you can’t email people. Right. It’s just not true. Even in places like the EU that have, you know, restrictive laws around email and things like that, you still can, if there’s a legitimate interest that the person might have in the service, as long as you give them a way to unsubscribe and an address where they can mail to if they need to unsubscribe that way. Those are the only two requirements that you really, really need. And so what we realized is that if we can find the right people and we send them emails to validate that the inbox is like an active inbox, it’s like an actually maintained inbox, then effectively, we know that they will be interested in the content coming from a newsletter, maybe the services that are sort of attached to that newsletter. And so my co-founder is this guy, Matt. He is probably the best like cold email guy and data guy that I’ve ever met. He’s a Teal fellow. His last company was backed by Y Combinator. Like he’s legit. And he had been building this database for cold email lead generation. And I said, well, what if we actually help, you know, a little bit higher in the funnel, let people own those emails, and sort of build a media machine around this. And so that’s what we’ve started to do with sort of my media side, and his data side. So the way it works is that we have a database of 200 million emails that are enriched by what those people like care about on social media, it’s interest level targeting, just like you’d get through paid, you know, Facebook ads or something like that. Yeah directly in people’s inboxes so it’s more powerful than just like job title you know that you get from like apollo or zoom info or something like that then we know you know what’s in their social media bios who they follow what they talk about what they engage with and we turn that into a structured data set and so we can get demographics and psychographics from you and we can say all right well I can tell you exactly who the icp is for right yeah I mean whatever the ICP is, I mean, I know I took a look. So I have some idea, but we’ll, we’ll want to get more of that from you for sure. But the basically whatever the ICP is for anybody, we can comb through that data set. You know, we’re always adding to the data set too, of course, but we can comb through it, query against it and pull lists of people who we know will be interested in the topic. Then we set up cold email campaigns just from us, not from your brand or anything like that. Just to validate that the inbox is active, that they’re in this type of content. And then once they do that, then we can add them to a newsletter and sort of double check that they want to get this content from you. So we have like a greatest hits sequence of like the best issues of the newsletter, get those first. And then if they engage with those, then they sort of graduate and become subscribers of the newsletter going forward. [Michael Bernzweig]: I love the fact that you’re able to reuse that same data across a whole range of customers that’s crazy good. [Michael Houck]: Yeah I mean if we’re giving you data that we’re not going to give the same subscribers as somebody else like you know we have a large data set but yeah it’s. [Michael Bernzweig]: To collect and make you collect the information once right you have multiple times it’s brilliant and then at the end of the day you’re maintaining that data so you’re you’re doing something that the clients on your solution Would have to do you know on their own and probably wouldn’t know the economy scale. [Michael Houck]: Right exactly and also it’s like to really do the code email that well and to really do the data scraping like that well it’s like a whole enterprise for someone to set up such as worth it i’ve been doing [Michael Bernzweig]: it for four months and I’m just like in between everything else I’m doing you know it’s like I’m learning but it’s like another job you don’t need another job result. Interesting. So yeah. So give me an example of like you see my newsletter. So you want to bring aboard subscribers at scale. So is it bringing, so can what you’re doing work for newsletter subscribers as well as solutions? So like let’s say somebody were interested sort of a digital product. [UNKNOWN_SPEAKER]: Yeah. [Michael Houck]: So our idea and our thesis is basically that if they’re interested in a digital product that you’re selling, the best way for you to sell that to them is probably just to get them on your email list and get in their inbox every week anyway, with the newsletter, you know, we can pitch them some cold email sequence about the product, but [Michael Bernzweig]: So, so what I’m aiming for, and this is kind of listening to what Matt Matt’s talking about is. You know, being honest with you, I really wish I had started focusing on the newsletter earlier, but even with the results I’ve seen so far, you know, everyone is all focused on advertising and newsletters. And it’s like, how would that, it’s like, I want to, you know, promote my own digital products. You know, I’ve got courses, I’ve got, you know, all kinds of, I’ve got so many different solutions that I’m offering that can be promoted through the newsletter. So it’s like, why wouldn’t you be fully, fully, fully vertically integrated? If you can’t, it can be right. [Michael Houck]: Like if you, if you’re cold emailing me and you’re sent, you’re trying to sell a course to me, like maybe I buy the course, but it’s the message really needs to resonate for that to be the case versus if [Michael Bernzweig]: you’re cold emailing trust through the newsletter and then eventually right at the right time for me, I’ll be getting those emails. [Michael Houck]: It’ll be in my face and I’ll, I’ll, I’ll pick it up. [Michael Bernzweig]: I have a friend who’s into finance and, um, he, he actually worked for, you know, staples. Yeah, of course. [Michael Houck]: Yes. [Michael Bernzweig]: He worked for staples for years. He, he managed all of their, he was managing their whole department, basically their, their client acquisition channel for like all of their email lists and all that kind of stuff. And I’ve been like, he’s been following along my journey here with the newsletter. And, um, I’m like, Brian, and he’s like totally into finance. Like that, that’s his, like, he loves finance inside and out. And I’m like, you just got to start the finance newsletter. I’m like, you’d be, he’s like, yeah, he’s like, I can’t advise people. I’m like, and then I don’t know if you saw Matt’s last newsletter that he put out. It was about financial newsletters. Like Brian, you got to check this out. It’s the whole playbook on everything you need to do. Just, just go do it. Like stop thinking about too many people like spend too much time thinking. About what they’re going to do and just not doing. [Michael Houck]: It’s like, just get out there and do it. [Michael Bernzweig]: Just launch it, and get the feedback from people, and iterate, and go. [Michael Houck]: That’s all you need. Exactly. [Michael Bernzweig]: Which is great, unless you’re my wife. My wife just keeps changing what you do. I’m like, no, this is how you iterate a business. I’m like, once you find what works, you’re good. To keep trying other stuff. [Michael Houck]: Yeah, my ex-wife was the same. There you go. [Michael Bernzweig]: But yeah, so it’s super simple once we get set up. [Michael Houck]: And anybody who sort of doesn’t hit the engagement criteria with that greatest hits sequence that we would set up, we just turn them out automatically. They don’t get spammed by you going forward. They’re clearly not interested at that point. So we would figure out what what that criteria is and how many emails they should get. But, but yeah, it’s pretty, it’s pretty automatic at that point. [Michael Bernzweig]: So are the emails coming from me or from you or where are they coming from [Michael Houck]: So the initial cold emails where we’re sort of validating interest, those come from us. Those are totally unrelated to you. We’re just sort of like pen testing their inbox essentially. But then when we import them into the newsletter, they’re coming from you. They’re just separate from the main, newsletter and if they graduate from this other sequence then they get added to the main newsletter automatically. [Michael Bernzweig]: So you’re kind of mailing your regular list and then you’ve got this other list and then they eventually… Right. Okay, you just watch the engagement on those stats and all that stuff to make sure they’re not gonna kill your regular list. [Michael Houck]: Yeah, we’re very conscious about deliverability and stuff like that. We’re always watching spam reports and churning anybody out quickly who’s seems like a bad actor or anything like that. We have zero issues with any of our initial clients, and all of them have converted from free beta to paid. [Michael Bernzweig]: So we feel pretty confident about it. OK. And how do you do the service? [Michael Houck]: How does it all work? In terms of the logistics of the process? Yeah. So it’s super simple. Since you’d be one of these early clients that we have, we’d set up Do you guys use Slack for the business or mostly email? [Michael Bernzweig]: No, mostly email, but I mean, everyone seems to be on Slack, so I probably, everybody’s either on Slack or WhatsApp, right? Yeah, that’s true. Well, if you wanted, we could set up a Slack channel. [Michael Houck]: If not, we can just email you. [Michael Bernzweig]: I actually use Slack a little bit, but I’m not like, I don’t live in it all day long, you know? [UNKNOWN_SPEAKER]: Okay. [Michael Houck]: Well, you would let us know what’s best for you, but if it’s email, that’s fine. We can email sort of, weekly results and reports and things like that. We don’t require any calls. If you ever want to hop on a chat, obviously happy to do that. But we don’t require it of your time. And basically, each Monday, we would deliver the agreed upon amount of subscribers. And they’d sort of start going through this process with the greatest hits type sequence of best issues. And we’d be monitoring to see how the ones we imported last week have performed. And reporting that to you. So the actual like amount of incremental work or ops time, or even just reviewing time, it’s very minimal. But, you know, we handle all that sort of on our side. [Michael Bernzweig]: So, and essentially, once they’re to the point where they’re ready to import into the list, you just shoot us to CSV or something, and then we just import them? Or how does that work? [Michael Houck]: What are you using for the newsletter today? What platform are you sending it? [Michael Bernzweig]: Right now, on convert kit or kit or whatever you want to call it. I don’t know why they changed their names. [Michael Houck]: Craziest fricking thing in the world. Just keep it convert kit. You know, I don’t, I don’t know. [Michael Bernzweig]: I think it was a better name. I think it definitely, I think it was a better name. And I think they just got sold, sold a bill of goods by somebody. [Michael Houck]: I don’t know. 1000%. I could not agree more. [Michael Bernzweig]: And I know, I know Nathan, I’ll be honest with you. I’ve, I’ve seen this 101 times, but at the end of the day, it’s logistics to transitioning. I’ve been there, done that. Don’t wanna, there’s like no, you know. You got the battle scars. Yeah. It’s like, oh my goodness. I’m like, I wanted to be like, Nathan, do you even know what you’re in for? They played into it though. [Michael Houck]: They made it like a whole like social media event, like branding dates. I don’t know. I thought it was a little too much if you ask me, but Anyway, yeah, so we can do it with ConvertKit. Personally, we prefer Beehive because it’s easier to set up some of the logistical stuff. [Michael Bernzweig]: If Beehive existed when I started, it probably would have been there. Those guys are running at the speed of light with their pants on fire. It’s just driving in a left-hand lane and just taking things out. [Michael Houck]: Well, if you want, part of what we can offer is we can migrate it for you to Beehive. Prefer, but no pressure on that. That’s just like a thing we can we can do. But yeah, basically, we would go into the newsletter, we’d set up an automated email sequence. And we’d set up some segments, where people are in the funnel. And then you would add us as like a user with whatever permissions you feel comfortable giving. And then we would handle the importing, we’d add the CSV, we’d handle all that stuff, you wouldn’t even need to think about it. [Michael Bernzweig]: So, so what kind, so obviously doing it through cold email is going to be way less expensive than, than doing any other kind of, of paid advertising or anything. So it kind of fits more into, into what we’re doing in terms of organic, um, how, like, uh, obviously it’s early on in what you guys are doing, but how, um, like, have you got a few people doing it? How’s it working for everybody? [UNKNOWN_SPEAKER]: Yeah. [Michael Houck]: So the lowest open rate we’ve seen, you know, We’re working with seven beta clients plus my own newsletter, so eight in total. The lowest open rate we’ve seen through this channel is 65%. And click rates obviously are going to vary based on how many links people include in their newsletter versus a different one, but in every single case, the click rate is higher than the ones that they use. So we’ve seen very, very good results, no issues with spam or anything like that. And so that’s why we feel confident started to offer a more broader service that we’re doing. Um, and pricing wise, what we’re doing is a minimum 1000 subscribers per month at a dollar subscriber. So cheaper than you get through paid ads or something like that. Uh, if you did 5,000 or more per month that drops to 50 cents per subscriber. [UNKNOWN_SPEAKER]: Okay. [Michael Bernzweig]: Um, so yeah, it’s a pretty good way to scale a list pretty efficiently. So. So pretty much 50 cents of subscribers is at volume Yeah, and you’re able to deliver subscribers that are relevant pretty consistently Yeah, our biggest client right now is using us for 32,000 subscribers a month And they have the second highest open rate out of the initial client batch we have there at 74 75% Wow so and let me ask you one other question and just to get your opinion on this so I’ve read people with very different opinions on this so And I’ll tell you why I’m doing this and it’s worked out Single up so like they literally subscribe and they’re in I don’t have a double opt-in. Yeah it For many years. Okay, you know, I’ve got spam all kinds of stuff on the front end to block spam and Um, you know, what I was finding when I was doing the opt in was, you know, uh, almost like 40% of the people never clicked on the link. And so I’m just, you lose half the people right away anyway. So it’s like, what do you get to lose? Yeah, honestly, I’ve, I’ve never done it. [Michael Houck]: Um, I know people who have done it, but they all sort of see the same thing that you’re talking about. I would, I would even say that 60% conversion is good relative to some other folks that I’ve seen. [Michael Bernzweig]: So, um, Yeah we use the auto subscribe people when they come in right. [Michael Houck]: Yeah we don’t we don’t encourage the double opt in if people want to unsubscribe they will and if you haven’t. [Michael Bernzweig]: That was my point I’m like if they want unsubscribe you know if you’re getting an email newsletter twice a week and you don’t want it click on the unsubscribe link. [Michael Houck]: Right and if they if they if they don’t engage with the content like if you’re just sending emails to inboxes and opening anything you know you have some automation that auto turns them out if they don’t engage. For X amount of weeks. [UNKNOWN_SPEAKER]: Right. [Michael Bernzweig]: So I haven’t seen any issues. No, that’s good. Very interesting. Can you shoot me a quick email with a little more of all the details and stuff? So I’m still figuring out through the newsletter channel, which obviously, like I said, I’m remiss in getting to where it is even now. Trying to figure out what the conversion rates and things like that are for the different digital products that we’re putting in there. So that’s going to help me figure out the volume that it makes sense to scale it, but the numbers kind of make sense. I mean, you know, so you’re talking like 2,500 bucks a month for 5,000 new subscribers. Yeah. [Michael Houck]: So I’ll, what I’ll do is I’ll send over an email just summarizing sort of what we talked about and all the details. And then whenever it makes sense for you, we’ll be here. We’re scaling this thing up pretty quickly. That’s our goal. [Michael Bernzweig]: So just so you know. If you’ve got the process down, you’ve already figured it out. You’ve got the data, and you’re going through everything, and it’s working. And obviously, you’ve been doing what you’re doing. [Michael Houck]: Makes sense. It’s one of those businesses that we just started, and I can already tell the process is there. It’s an execution play at this point, because we know it works. [Michael Bernzweig]: into, uh, into process and procedure. If you can get something that works and you can scale it. And actually the last company that I just sold, we started that it was actually, well, actually I bought the company. It was a, originally a mail order catalog. I brought it online. Uh, it was in the sporting goods space, brought it from half a million dollars in sales to the number when, when I bought it to the number one player in the category. Two years ago. So, uh, the only reason we were able to do that was all of the competitors. So this is like early nineties, right? Didn’t have any integration, didn’t have any process or procedure or structure. They were, they were still using like mainframe computers and AS four hundreds and our six thousands. And so what, what I did was automated absolutely everything. The minute somebody placed an order on the website until it shipped out of the warehouse in the back door allowed and keyed. Everything was absolutely one stream of data. So while they were re-keying from their old system into the new system, into this system, and then running a credit card on the terminal, and then doing a handwritten UPS log, or whatever the heck they were doing, at every step along the way, some digit got transposed, or left off, or who knows how the packages even got there, we were just like flying high. [Michael Houck]: You’re speaking my language, man. I’m an ops guy at heart. [Michael Bernzweig]: Yeah, it’s in here. Yeah. [Michael Houck]: Well, look, let me know. I’ll shoot over to you, man. Shoot me that. [Michael Bernzweig]: And definitely, over the next couple of weeks, I think we’ll have a better idea as to where all these numbers are at, and then I can make a good decision. But I mean, those numbers make sense. I think that’s pretty straightforward. So maybe we can take the journey with you early on. [Michael Houck]: Let’s do it, man. I would love to have you on board. We’d love to help out. So just let me know. I’ll share that email. [Michael Bernzweig]: I have a couple more calls, but after that, I’ll share it over and we’ll go from there. [Michael Houck]: So who’s your audience for your newsletter? For my newsletter, it’s startup founders, mostly venture backed, but some bootstrap folks in there, too. I used to run a co-living business, so we’d rent out a mansion in Beverly Hills or Aspen or Tulum, and we’d bring 20 to 25 founders together for a month, and they’d just live there, and we’d bring in guest speakers and run programming. [Michael Bernzweig]: It was sort of like, we framed it as like a Y Combinator meets Soho House. [Michael Houck]: Is it SaaS founders, or is it just founders in general? It ended up being mostly software, yeah, mostly SaaS, some AI folks. Do you know Ryan? [Michael Bernzweig]: Ryan Ellis? He was with iContact. He started that company? No, I don’t know Ryan. So iContact in the early days was one of the first email marketing platforms. Google it after we hang up. So he actually started that in the 90s, grew it, sold it for an ungodly amount of money, disappeared off off the face of the earth for about 10 years. Turned up a couple of years ago and I started talking to him again. And he actually did something really interesting. So after he sold that company, and it’s been sold a couple of times since then, he actually had dropped out of Harvard originally to start that company, went back to Harvard, got his degree. After he got his degree, he actually started a community, Sassrise. I’ll send you a link. So what his community is, is Sass founders. And he’s kind of helping these Sass founders in their journey. Because I think the one thing that he really was very unhappy about when he had his whole run up to his exit was that he didn’t really have anybody to kind of mentor him, ask him questions, all that kind of stuff. So he started this community for SaaS founders to be able to basically provide that mentorship and all the guidance that he never had kind of going along. [Michael Houck]: I love that. Oh, excuse me. Got some phlegm apparently. I love that. I think that’s the number one thing that founders will talk about when they come together is just how lonely the journey can be because you’re just on your own and you’re accountable to no one, unless maybe you’re investors. But even then, there’s stuff that you need to just figure out yourself. And it’s what I sign up for because it’s so much fun and the upside is so big and all that stuff. But having an outlet like that where you can find folks who are either at the same stage or one stage beyond that can be that mentor to you, incredibly, incredibly valuable. It sounds like a great thing. [Michael Bernzweig]: Where did you grow up? Where were you? [Michael Houck]: I grew up in Philly. I was born in New York, grew up in Philly, and then I’ve lived all over the U.S. I went to college in Miami. I helped start, you know, I was not Stark. I was part of the early team at Uber Eats in L.A. Before I moved to San Francisco. Then I was at Airbnb in San Francisco, moved to New York, got married, and now I’m sort of nomading around trying to figure out what the next Nice. [Michael Bernzweig]: So how did you end up where you are there? [Michael Houck]: Right now? Yeah. Oh, I don’t know. I, um, I wanted to do South America for the, for the winter. Cause I hate the cold. You seem like as good a place as the next, you know, that’s kind of fun. [Michael Bernzweig]: And, um, like the literally a month after I started this business, my brother and I went to, uh, to Australia and, um, and brought a laptop with me. No, actually, I didn’t bring a laptop with me. I went to cyber cafes all around Australia and was able to run the whole business virtually through these little cafes. And I’m like, oh, this internet thing is for me. I like this. I’m halfway around the world, logging in, drinking coffee, running my business. This is awesome. [Michael Houck]: Feels like a pretty good deal at that point. I made the right choice. [Michael Bernzweig]: Yeah. It took off right away. I mean, there was no competition back then either. So I don’t know if I was lucky or just young and stupid. [Michael Houck]: A little bit of both at the end of the day, that ends up being the case. [Michael Bernzweig]: All right. Well, cool. Thanks for your time. [UNKNOWN_SPEAKER]: Talk soon. [Michael Houck]: I’ll send you an email later today and we’ll go from there. [Michael Bernzweig]: All right. Take care. [Michael Houck]: See you. Bye.